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This is just the rough transcript, machine-generated. There is no punctuation, no indication of which speaker is speaking. But it may be useful (and save you some typing) if you want to extract quotes. I'm not interested myself to sort it all out. I'm still working on Tom O'Carrolls tape. Whatever... 00:00 Intro 01:35 Jamie Reed’s Background 02:47 Working in a Trans Clinic 04:36 The Reason for the Rapid Increase in Patients 06:43 How Ideologues Weaponise Language 10:33 When Did the Number of Patients Become Concerning? 12:10 The Process Once Children are Referred to a Clinic 13:33 The Effects of Puberty Blockers and Other Hormone Drugs 18:56 Sponsor Message: Athletic Greens 20:29 Flaws in the Legal System 26:27 How the Press Treated Jamie 28:58 Why Don’t Clinics get in Legal Trouble? 32:04 Can Children Consent to Transition? 36:07 Were the Drawbacks of Hormone Therapy Not Obvious? 41:51 Why Would a Parent Want Their Child to Transition? 43:56 Sponsor Message: easyDNS 45:01 Why is Trans Ideology So Powerful? 50:08 Why Jamie is Speaking Out 56:48 What to Do if Your Child Wants to Transition 01:06:13 What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About? Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry CHAPTERS 00:00 Intro 01:35 Jamie Reed’s Background 02:47 Working in a Trans Clinic 04:36 The Reason for the Rapid Increase in Patients 06:43 How Ideologues Weaponise Language 10:33 When Did the Number of Patients Become Concerning? 12:10 The Process Once Children are Referred to a Clinic 13:33 The Effects of Puberty Blockers and Other Hormone Drugs 18:56 Sponsor Message: Athletic Greens 20:29 Flaws in the Legal System 26:27 How the Press Treated Jamie 28:58 Why Don’t Clinics get in Legal Trouble? 32:04 Can Children Consent to Transition? 36:07 Were the Drawbacks of Hormone Therapy Not Obvious? 41:51 Why Would a Parent Want Their Child to Transition? 43:56 Sponsor Message: easyDNS 45:01 Why is Trans Ideology So Powerful? 50:08 Why Jamie is Speaking Out 56:48 What to Do if Your Child Wants to Transition 01:06:13 What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About? Intro 0:00 mental health was getting worse once they started the blocker and that's against what the narrative tells us the 0:07 narrative says these interventions are supposed to make people better we were 0:13 pretty much putting anybody on testosterone at 13 and a half if that's what they wanted it was getting to the 0:19 point where we were harming more patients that we were helping just by the Numbers what I am not in agreement 0:28 with is this push to Rapid Medical ization of children and it got to the 0:33 point in the center where there was a an actual 0:39 directive that we were no longer allowed to use the phrase I have concerns about 0:46 a patient and in medicine that should scare anyone special guest today is a 0:54 whistleblower from a transgender clinic in the United States Jamie Reid welcome to trigonometry thank you for having me 1:01 uh it's great to have you on the show listen uh Francis and I have just both reread your article for a second time uh 1:08 we're going to talk about all all the stuff that you said in there one of the most terrifying things that I've ever 1:13 read to be honest and so I'm looking forward to speaking with you about it but before we get into that uh just tell 1:19 our audience who may not be familiar with you and and the story that you shared who are you what's been your 1:24 journey through life how did you get to the position that you got to and what did you see there and and why did you decide to to speak up thank you for 1:32 those questions so um I'm Jamie Reid I have a master's of Science in clinical Jamie Reed’s Background 1:37 research management and I was previously the casew worker in the Pediatric 1:44 transgender Center at a clinic in St Louis Missouri so in the middle of the 1:49 middle of America um I started well I spent about four years and four months in that 1:56 position I worked at the University pre previous to working with trans kids I 2:02 was working with young adults who were HIV positive I have a lot of experience 2:07 in case management I worked with kids who are in foster care um and I've also 2:13 worked in a lot of medical and health settings too so I came into the clinic 2:20 really excited about the opportunity that I thought was going to be to help trans Youth and their 2:26 parents and uh you mentioned in your article that you know you're Progressive you're married to a trans man like or in 2:33 a relationship with a trans man sorry I don't remember which but in any case you're married well congratulations so 2:40 very Progressive you know you come into this place wanting to make a difference I assume and then over a period of time Working in a Trans Clinic 2:48 you start to have doubts and you try to express doubts and that doesn't go particularly well for you and 2:55 increasingly you become very alarmed at what you're seeing so talk to us you 3:00 know just at the very beginning of that Germany you get there I'm you're all pumped to ready to go and what 3:06 happens right away I was struck by the 3:12 lack of organization for the center so there was no real written protocols it 3:19 seemed like it was kind of a fly by the seat of the pants kind of operation they had already been open for a solid year 3:26 before I got there and yet it seemed like they were kind of operating outside 3:32 of a lot of the normal structures that you'd see in medicine most of the dep departments and divisions in medicine 3:39 have a lot of layers there's a lot of topheavy there's a lot of you know 3:45 administrative roles and it seemed like the center was kind of off on its own 3:51 had this little pocket and I was also struck at the very beginning because the 3:58 administration of the hospital let this Clinic open and I was told that they 4:03 originally thought that they were going to have about 50 patients total and when I 4:09 left we were close to 2,000 wow yeah huge difference W and why 4:17 do you think that was Jamie what do you think were the reasons for that um I definitely have come to 4:26 believe that in the United States there is an element of social contagion in 4:31 play going on with young people who are seeking out care um in gender centers The Reason for the Rapid Increase in Patients 4:38 and I'm not the only one to believe that I had lots of parents report very 4:45 similar things and there were even a number of patients in the center who would report and directly said I I only 4:53 got this online wow so they only got this online because your article is very interesting 5:00 because you talk about when you started in the center it was mainly boys 5:05 suffering from gender dysphoria and then you started to see more and more girls 5:10 come in were they the ones who were particularly to Su susceptible to this 5:17 social contagion as you put it I think it's well known in medicine 5:22 that adolescent girls are just more more open and more susceptible to 5:31 many different kinds of social contagion that has to do with a lot of ways that 5:37 girls are socialized but also the way that girls interact in kind of group 5:42 settings and pick up things and show empathy with those in their group 5:48 setting oftentimes by taking on attributes in those group settings so I 5:54 didn't just see that these kids were picking up gender as a social Contagion we have a lot of issues right now in my 6:02 country with adolescents who are experiencing tick disorders they think 6:08 they have tourettes there's been a recent wave of young people believing that they have um what they refer to as 6:15 did so multiple personalities um you are seeing these things directly coming from social 6:24 media and Jamie can I ask you a question and sorry to to sort of appear picky but before you started talking about how 6:30 adolescent girls have certain problems you kind of did like a little sigh almost like you're resigning yourself to 6:36 having to say is is was part of your experience that even that very idea was controversial in the environment that 6:42 you were operating in um so you'll have How Ideologues Weaponise Language 6:48 to remember that in some ways I am deprogramming my language out of some 6:58 cult like conversations so even for me I still 7:03 take pause in using the phrase adolescent girls because when you work 7:09 in a place like this you don't say that you say people are assigned female at Birth you don't say people are boys you 7:17 say they are assigned male at Birth so even the way that we spoke about 7:22 everybody was in this framework of the gender ideology World wow 7:30 so you just I know that to you this seems kind of like normal but to a like 7:36 a a person outside of that space just to clarify in this transgender Clinic you 7:42 would never refer to people as boys or girls or men or women you would say assigned female at birth that's 7:50 transphobic to do so wow okay but yeah so so but even though 7:59 biological sex is obviously real oh yes um 8:05 medicine medicine is is really interesting in this right now because in 8:11 some ways all of the doctors would clearly acknowledge biological sex we 8:17 would you would say someone was assigned female at Birth assigned male at Birth maybe you could use natal sex um they 8:25 they acknowledged its existence because in you know if you're in the emergency room and you have somebody who's coding 8:32 and you're trying to figure out you know what their lung capacity is you know 8:37 there are definite medical needs and times when your biological sex changes 8:44 the course of the treatment um but in our patient 8:50 population we everyone was assigned female birth assigned male 8:56 at Birth um you heard the term Cy a lot who's cisgender we talked about how all 9:01 of our patients were probably you know would judge you if you walked in and they thought you were CIS um those kind 9:08 of things it's it's it's constant and Jamie how did this affect this type of 9:14 language how did this affect the way that you treated your patients I do think that um the staff 9:22 were always sort of on edge because it wasn't just the concern that you were providing 9:30 good medical care but you also always had the concern um has this patient 9:36 pronouns changed again their preferred names were changing frequently even the 9:43 term preferred name sometimes people would say that's not that's you know 9:48 activists would push that that you can't even say that because it's not it's it's not their preference it's their name 9:53 even though it's not their legal name um a lot of the STA that are hired into 10:00 the clinics like this at least in the United States are also activists and oftentimes directly there's a push to 10:07 directly hire trans and lgbtqia people to work in these clinics as the 10:13 staff and so you join the clinic you start working you start noticing some of these things and when did you start to 10:20 get really concerned because you were the person responsible for processing the intake of potential patients so 10:26 you're getting these people in and going you go here you go there when did you feel like whoa like this is When Did the Number of Patients Become Concerning? 10:34 not good it was a slow process to get there 10:41 um there definitely was a point where I went from 10 intakes a month where there 10:47 would be 10 newly referred young people to the numbers being in the 40s and 50s 10:55 every single month and the cases were 11:00 getting more and more outlandish or sometimes even 11:06 completely bizarre um in the states oftentimes if 11:13 anything about gender gets brought up in a pediatrician's office they immediately just refer you to the gender Center so I 11:20 could be getting an intake where a kid maybe told their parent three days ago 11:26 that they thought they were non-binary and asking for them pronouns and yet they're already Landing in a specialized 11:34 Medical Clinic that does hormones so there were some intakes where it was 11:39 just it made absolutely no sense the entire concept of kids being allowed to 11:45 explore their gender and explore these Concepts have been almost wiped off the 11:50 map and what would happen let's say I bring my 12-year-old daughter to you 3 11:57 days ago she said that she's non-binary she wants they them pronouns what happens to her from there so initially I 12:05 would try to be encouraging you as a parent to find a therapist and start working with therapist for your kid The Process Once Children are Referred to a Clinic 12:14 um but the minute you're talking to me on the phone you have already started on a 12:22 pathway because the only therapists that I have to refer your kid to are 12:29 therapists who are going to affirm their gender identity not question it at all 12:35 and potentially as soon as I say take your kid to that therapist that therapist might see them for one or two 12:41 visits and send them right back to the center to get started and seen by the people that prescribe hormones so three 12:49 days ago my daughter said I think I'm nonbinary because she saw on social media let's say I bring her to you you 12:57 send us to a therapist therapist sees us a couple of times sends us back to you in order to see a doctor to be 13:03 prescribed hormones potentially yes Jesus [ __ ] 13:09 Christ sorry for my language okay yeah so I I think this is a very important 13:14 part of the conversation because someone I know very close to me had a double masectomy and that is a very very 13:21 serious operation it's a very serious operation it can and you know this better than anyone it can take months to 13:27 recover from and actually the the risk of complications with such an invasive type of surgery uh the risks are high to The Effects of Puberty Blockers and Other Hormone Drugs 13:35 put it mildly so let's look at this what do we mean by puberty blockers what do we mean 13:41 by these drugs and what are the potential side effects of these drugs so the puberty blockers we were 13:51 using were mostly their implants that go into the arm or their injectables that 13:58 are used on a monthly or three-month basis um in our 14:03 Center you had to be at least in the very initial start of puberty to get a 14:08 puberty blocker um but one of the things we were starting to see was that some of the 14:16 kids put on the puberty blockers mental health was getting worse once they started the blocker and that's against 14:24 what the narrative tells us the narrative says these interventions are supposed to make people 14:29 better and what we were seeing was parents calling and saying my child has 14:35 had the Blocker in for a month they're crying every day they've had the Blocker in for three months and they're now 14:42 failing out of school um things that were supposed to be get getting better we're getting worse in the center that I 14:49 worked in um I started there when we were still supposed to be operating 14:54 under the wpath guidelines uh standard of care 14:59 seven which had some age kind of ideas for when people were supposed 15:07 to start hormones um wpath 7 was supposed to be 16 and it said only in rare and you know 15:16 kind of urgent cases should you be under the age of 16 we were pretty much 15:21 putting anybody on testosterone at 13 and a half if that's what they wanted and they got to us in time and what does 15:28 that do to you if you are a young person who's been given testosterone young girl well it depends 15:36 so if you were fale assigned to birth sorry well no even if you were given a blocker first okay and we blocked you 15:44 and then put you on a cross- seex hormone we are potentially 15:49 basically causing you to be infertile for life and 15:55 testosterone um you know this the the effect that kids reported that they 16:01 wanted happen pretty quick so we would permanently affect your voice and your voice would be dropped into a male pitch 16:10 uh you would see growth on your clitoris into what we would refer to as a micro 16:15 penis um we would start seeing atrophy and your vaginal Canal would start to 16:23 have atrophic features your all of your body fat would start to 16:30 move and shift around um you would have facial hair growth a lot of our patients 16:35 would start to start losing the hair on the top of their head um and then we 16:42 would see mood changes we would see patients who 16:47 were again they're supposed to be getting better their mental health was supposed to be getting better A lot of 16:53 times it was not doing what we thought it was going to do and if you were on 16:58 feminite ing hormones you would start growing breast tissue your fat would move um and again if you were put on 17:05 blockers first it would render you potentially infertile for life and now 17:11 we also know for the kids the the boys if we block 17:16 you and put you on feminizing hormones we also are potentially making you have sexual dysfunction for Life what what do 17:23 you mean by sexual dysfunction so in the boys 17:29 blockers make it so that they never grow the penis or the 17:36 testicles if you never go through puberty and you never have those 17:41 hormones affect that area you are left with the same kind of penis size that 17:47 you would have that kids have when they're little before they go through puberty and then also we knew that the 17:56 feminizing hormones would make it so you had a lot of erectile 18:01 dysfunction the testicles would shrink and atrophy and we would 18:08 be causing changes to that part of the body that were 18:14 irreversible I hate to say the obvious but those are some pretty major changes for a young person to undergo and 18:22 experience and the fact that a young person could have that start happening 18:29 to them after seeing a therapist twice and an endocrinologist once to me does not ethically line 18:36 up hey Constantine do you like being healthy of course in my country we judge 18:42 Men's Health by his ability to wrestle bear turns out in London wrestle bear has very different meaning we a w not 18:49 that's got out of hand we will speak no more of this this 18:55 secret will be buried with my ancestors well if you want to stay h and not feel like you need to be buried Sponsor Message: Athletic Greens 19:01 with constantin's ancestors then you need to try ag1 ag1 is simple and easy 19:07 way to get all nutrients you need each serving contains 75 high quality vitamins minerals and Whole Food Source 19:15 ingredients one scoop and you feel like real men we used it on our America Tour 19:20 where we were constantly on the Move living out of a bag and working every day ag1 meant we felt great looked great 19:28 and we avoided getting sick one scoop a day meant we knew we had all the vitamins and minerals needed for the day 19:35 we had hugely successful trip it is very economical and I felt strong enough to wrestle American be which we all know is 19:42 grotesquely weak compared to Great Russian bir if you're looking for a simpler and coste effective supplement 19:48 routine ag1 is giving you a free oneyear supply of vitamin D and five travel 19:55 packs with your first purchase go to athle greens.com 20:00 trigonometry that's athletic greens.com trigonometry check it out and become 20:06 real men like me one of the other things that we 20:11 should also talk about is it came to a point you talked about in your article that sometimes there were situations 20:18 particularly if they went to court if parents disagreed about this that you 20:24 had a situation that you talk about where the mother who was quite Disturbed based on your recollection at least Flaws in the Legal System 20:31 insisted that her daughter who wasn't particularly a typical case of someone who experiencing genuine desire to 20:38 transition was encouraged to transition by her mother against her father's wishes and the center where you worked 20:45 for was essentially the one that was giving the recommendation to the judge and made the recommendation that it 20:50 should be the mother's opinion that that essentially comes out on top so a parent 20:56 was in a situation where the child was going through all of this without even consenting to 21:02 it right we we we had that happen quite frequently and right now in the United 21:09 States it seems like in the courts the parents who want to give these drugs are 21:15 the ones that are winning in the custody cases which to 21:21 me uh it just often times the parents who didn't want to give the drugs all 21:28 they asking for was more time in therapy and 21:33 even I they were losing they're losing in court and I think in part because 21:38 doctors like the doctors that worked in my Center would show up in court and testify on behalf of the parent who 21:44 wanted to give the drugs right away why is 21:49 that uh why would they do that because it's the part of the ideological 21:58 mindset that the thought is is that we have to give these drugs right away or 22:06 else or else these kids are going to be harmed somehow and you say ideological is there 22:13 not evidence to say that you know if you get in there early you can save that's the argument that people make you know 22:18 you get in there early you save them the discomfort of later life developing you know the anatomy of the birth sex Etc is 22:27 there evidence for this idea um not in the kinds of patients that are presenting 22:33 currently and it depends so if you look back at the original study it's often 22:39 referred to as the Dutch study if you look back at the original study they were screening out patients who had 22:47 mental health concerns because the goal of that treatment was yes to treat some 22:54 dysphoria but there's not evidence that this treats major depressive disorder 23:00 borderline personality disorder autism it that's that's not what this is 23:08 evidence to treat and yet the argument is is that if we can medicalize somebody 23:14 then all of their other mental health issues will somehow be alleviated and the reason you mentioned 23:21 that sorry Francis just to clarify this is that a lot of the new cases that you 23:26 saw over and above what you expected these were very different profile they were not boys they were young girls who 23:32 were presenting with eating disorders autism autism like symptoms Etc right 23:38 that's why you bring it up absolutely and they are and they are girls who often times there is a disagreement so 23:46 they will claim that oh I felt like this my whole life and their parents 23:51 initially will often say they had no gender issues at all as a child that they were absolutely nor 23:59 formatively fine in there being a girl and it onset um at 1011 12 13 14 24:09 15 what you were saying is completely antithetical 24:14 to the the Creed that doctors supposed to follow which is Do no 24:19 harm what what you're saying and what I'm hearing is the harm being inflicted 24:25 on children which is appalling yes that's what I came to finally 24:31 understand that maybe maybe out of our huge number of patients 24:39 there were a few patients that this model of care maybe helped but it was 24:46 getting to the point where we were harming more patients that we were helping just by the 24:52 Numbers wow and so why at that point 24:57 when girls with autism I think you quoted the number of 30% are presenting 25:03 themselves the 30% of autistic girls when a people with severe psychiatric 25:09 illnesses are presenting themselves and have be putting through transition including some of the awful case that 25:15 you've spoken about why hasn't there been more people coming out and and and 25:21 talking about this or more people wanting to stop this so I do think those people I think 25:28 that there are more people like me and I I know that I've spoken to a number of 25:34 them since I have come forward but if you even look at what has 25:41 happened to me in my own local press 25:46 those basically the voice of reason the voice of can we slow down the voice of 25:52 we need to actually look at who we're hurting is being drowned out right now and we're being shouted down and 25:58 screamed out by this idea that the fact that I say anything is somehow is going 26:03 to hurt and harm trans kids so what has been the treatment that 26:10 you've received from the local press um I can I can't even count the 26:16 number of Articles and all they do is have vilified me um and they also vilify 26:23 me in in strange ways where I just wonder a lot of America right now is liking to How the Press Treated Jamie 26:31 pretend like y'all and England don't exist or that Sweden doesn't exist or 26:36 Finland doesn't exist or nor none of the countries like your country that's 26:41 actually starting to have some kind of a dialogue around this all the local media 26:47 would like to think that America is in a its own bubble and we know it's right on this topic and no one else exists well I 26:55 I I just the reason I ask is we've spoken to a lot of people people about this issue from all sorts of different 27:00 angles and the usual stuff is there a transfer whatever but you're married to a trans man how transphobic can you 27:08 be uh I also had identified as gender 27:13 queer in the past and I experienced a lot of gender dysphoria as a child myself um I am I'm not opposed to adult 27:22 transitioning um I do still think that adults who are transitioning would 27:27 benefit benefit by support of a therapist and a and a therapeutic process but I am not in any way opposed 27:35 to trans people I also have an undergrad in anthropology I fully understand that 27:40 there is a lot of diversity in um gender and gender presentation but what I am 27:47 not in agreement with is this push to Rapid medicalization of children and also the 27:55 current model doesn't even it doesn't even make sense if you're actually Pro 28:02 diversity because if if I am pro- gender diversity why are we telling little kids 28:09 that if they play with a toy that is not in their gender category that somehow 28:14 that means that they're trans like I thought it's 2023 shouldn't we be telling our children you can wear 28:21 whatever you want you can play with whatever toys you want you can have whatever job you want and instead we've 28:27 we're in some like weird 1950s thing where if a boy plays with a Barbie suddenly his parents think that he needs 28:34 to go to a gender clinic and it means that they're trans do you know the thing that I find 28:40 quite unusual as well is that in a society like America which is so 28:46 litigious where people sup others at the drop of a hat you have the you have the 28:54 minimum of medical checks fast Tracking not only people but children children Why Don’t Clinics get in Legal Trouble? 29:02 and young some very young children at that through to irreversible medical 29:08 procedures I mean that's just I mean that's just a million dooll lawsuit waiting to happen isn't it no because um 29:18 unfortunately the the institutions that are supposed 29:24 to okay let me explain so if you go try to file that lawsuit in the United 29:29 States today the doctors and the hospitals are able to say that the 29:35 American Academy of pediatric says that this is right the endocrine society says this is right and they try to they can 29:41 just claim that they're just following all of these medical uh guidelines 29:48 um I I did not believe that where I worked was following even these quote 29:56 guidelines but judge judges I think thus far have been taking that at that easy face value 30:04 I mean you hear it in the news while the America you know all of the American Medical establishments agree with this 30:12 kind of care and I it doesn't line up no it doesn't 30:20 and I suppose just to give people an example of what you're talking about you talk in in your article about a case 30:27 where there was a girl who had a double masectomy she had her breast removed I 30:32 think at 16 uh if I'm remembering correctly around that time sorry go ahead and 30:38 correct me no I think if if you're talking about the patient who called a few months later and asked to have her 30:44 breast put back on she was not a minor but she was young she was 18 or 19 when 30:50 we did the surgery so she has her breast removed a few months later she calls up and says I'm a girl I want my breast 30:58 back I mean a horrifying story in and of itself and she's pregnant so she's not 31:03 going to be able to breastfeed her child the most horrific thing I think one of the most horrific things that could 31:08 happen to a young woman you're saying she can't sue the people who advised her and and put her 31:15 through that I not a lawyer I'm not a lawyer so 31:20 I don't know yeah there is potentially a case there but I know that um the way 31:27 that the surgeon and the way that the center responded was that she made the 31:34 choice yeah and I think we see that with the D transitioners and some of them are 31:39 minors and they will say well your parent made the choice your parent agreed and that's kind of the question 31:45 here isn't it because one of the most mindboggling things about this ideology 31:51 as you describe it is uh you know I I am myself not a progressive uh I'm I'm 31:58 somewhere in the middle but I thought one of the most Central elements of progressivism was this increased attention towards the idea of consent Can Children Consent to Transition? 32:05 people shouldn't do things uh you know to other people without their consent 32:11 but I don't know about anyone but it doesn't seem to me like a 15year old or 32:17 16y old frankly even an 18y old from a very troubled background like this young woman is really capable of consenting to 32:25 those things with you know a full proper 32:30 understanding of the impact but these kids want these things so in so in these family Dynamics 32:40 and in these centers these kids show up and they were demanding this from their parents 32:47 yesterday and their whole household has been in chaos because this kid has 32:53 decided that the best thing for them right now is to start testosterone 32:59 tomorrow and I don't even know how you can okay 33:05 part of medical ethics and part of actual consenting has to be that you're not under any undue 33:14 influence so we think about that sometimes in in really you know bad 33:21 medical cases like if you were just told you have cancer and you and it's potentially you 33:27 know a very bad cancer we don't want to tell you 10 minutes later would you like 33:33 to be in this research study for this drug because we're putting you in an 33:38 undue influence and sometimes we even say maybe your maybe the person who's 33:44 going to treat your cancer shouldn't be the person who asks you if you want to do this procedure it should be somebody 33:50 neutral so you're you know so we think about these things in medical Ethics in medical ethics those young 33:57 people I believe are in a situation where they have undue influence they are 34:03 being influenced by a socially mediated cultural phenomenon and the only way 34:10 that they truly could give consent to that treatment is if they have been out of that phenomenon and out of that 34:17 social pressure for long enough I.E potentially an adult to then provide 34:24 that real consent or or we could just you know shut off all social media and 34:29 tell them they can't look at this stuff and then ask them you know if you have a 34:34 if you have a 15-year-old girl who's in the middle of this belief and we put her 34:40 in the middle of Montana with no internet access on a horse farm she potentially might not want testosterone 34:47 12 months down the line but that's the level they are they are under so much influence it's from their school it's 34:53 from their peers it's from the social media and they want this right now that makes sense but Jamie on top of all of 35:00 that though it's a kind of basic principle of our societies that children can't consent to anything 35:07 really right you can't you can't drink or take drugs or have sex lots of other 35:13 much more uh much less significant things in terms of the impact on your life and the lives of other people 35:18 around you you can't get a bad tattoo and be you have to be 18 to get bad tattoos 35:26 so you can get a tattoo you can't get a tattoo but you can get you can get hormones and potentially double 35:32 masectomy is is that not is that just I mean sorry but is that not 35:39 insane it it is to me now it was not to 35:45 me then I'm not having to go at you I'm trying to flesh out the issue itself do you see what I'm saying yeah no I yeah I 35:53 get it I get it but and Jamie again there is no blame attached to this what 35:59 we're trying to do is we're just trying to understand how these places work and 36:05 you say it wasn't obvious to you why was Were the Drawbacks of Hormone Therapy Not Obvious? 36:11 that so many of the the people who worked who I worked 36:17 with and I think that a lot of the people that work in these centers and in medicine and in Pediatrics in general 36:24 have a huge heart they really do care and they really do think that this is 36:30 the way to help these kids and I also 36:35 think that when you are faced with so much 36:43 distress so much chaos these kids are hurting they are maybe saying that 36:48 they're suicidal that they're self Haring that they are they are struggling I think on some level it's 36:55 easier to say well we'll give you what you want then to stand up and be the grownup and say no we're not doing that 37:03 right now and instead we have to do other things and then we also have to support the parents 37:09 because if you have parents who have been trying to deal with their kid who's 37:16 been demanding testosterone demanding this new name demanding these new pronouns demanding these clothes and 37:23 this and these kids are telling their parents it's the only thing that's going to keep me from killing myself how do we 37:29 support those parents to also say no we need to slow down and we need to think about this do you think part of the 37:37 problem is and I'm going to go back to the litigious point is that these clinics are worried that if they don't 37:42 do something and then let's say the kid does something rash or irres you know 37:48 what you know tries to kill themselves that they are then going to be held responsible for not putting correct 37:54 interventions in place because someone will come to them and go look this kid said they were suicidal they said they 38:00 were gender dysphoric you chose not you chose not to give the correct procedures 38:07 so we just call it like that in place as a result this kid attempted suicide 38:12 you're at fault so my answer is complicated here 38:18 so I've worked with young people who are expressing suicidal ideations thoughts 38:24 for a really long time I am not trying to downplay 38:31 suicidal thoughts and trans kids but I saw 38:37 more suicides in kids within the foster care system and kids who were HIV 38:45 positive as a young person than we saw in the Pediatric gender 38:52 Center and a lot of the kids in the gender 38:59 Center their Suicidal Thoughts 39:05 are different so often times when we 39:11 would send them these are seen more as threats and not attempts that's not 39:20 to say that we didn't have patients who did have true suicidal 39:25 ideations but I think as a whole the statistics do not 39:32 show that there are that high numbers of completed suicides in 39:39 this and very much on that subject and I know it's a tricky thing to ask you but I feel like I should we've heard from 39:47 other guests that quite often be because this this idea of being trans or 39:52 whatever is social media driven the kids are actually getting instruction on how to talk to somebody like you 39:59 absolutely to get what they to get what they need so when you know not all of 40:04 them but some of coming in and saying oh I'm suicidal because they know that's what gets the thing that they want is 40:10 that happening okay it is but the thing that scares me a little bit too is that some of the parents are doing the same 40:17 thing so I had some parents who would call to complete an intake with me and 40:23 they would describe the situation and I would say hey from what you're describing it sounds like your kid is 40:30 just experiencing some normal gender questioning it does not warrant the need 40:36 to be seen in a gender Center and then they would sometimes press me and find out kind of well what are the things 40:43 that warrant you being seen in a gender Center and then magically mom would call 40:50 me back a month later and now suddenly kiddo has expressed exactly what I told 40:57 old mom was needed to meet that 41:02 criteria we even had I had Parents even tell me things like my kid likes to play with this toy 41:10 and then they would tell me that they went and bought all of the kids books they could find on Amazon about being 41:16 trans and that they had hidden and sprinkled the trans kids books all throughout the house for their kids to 41:24 find and those were cases that just 41:29 there's something going on and what I know it's unfair to ask you to speculate 41:35 about other people's intentions but do you have any sense of why a parent would want to do 41:42 that I think you had a guest on maybe before who talked a little bit about how 41:48 you know to be a really to be a truly good liberal parent right now is Why Would a Parent Want Their Child to Transition? 41:54 to kind of allow your kid to it's like gone so far in One 42:02 Direction where you know if your kid expresses the slightest 42:08 non gender typ role you know you immediately need to start affirming and 42:13 asking them I mean I had Parents talk about how they would have all their kids close their eyes in like a circle in 42:20 their house in some like weird Seany thing and then open their eyes and tell 42:26 us what inner gender is now so this is parents literally seeding 42:32 these ideas into the heads of their own children yes uh my question is uh and by the way 42:41 just for clarification I don't know if you know this I was a teacher for a long time and I taught across all sectors and 42:47 I taught in girls schools as well so I saw how social contag and work particularly with young girls uh when I 42:54 taught in girls schools it was late nauy so back then there wasn't really any of the trans stuff it was mainly 43:00 anorexia but I look at this and I go that's child 43:06 abuse that is child abuse because if I was a teacher and I heard that this was 43:11 being done to a kid who I was teaching I would report them to Social Services I it would that would be my 43:18 duty as a teacher in the UK and if I didn't do that I would not I I would not 43:24 be fulfilling my role I would not be as we call in the UK in locco 43:31 parenes yes and there were a few cases where I would agree with 43:36 you do you have a website or do you plan to have a website because if you do then 43:42 easy DNS is a company for you easy DNS is the perfect domain name registar 43:48 provider and web host for you they have a track record of standing up for their clients whether it be cancel culture 43:54 deplatform attacks or over jealous government agencies he knows about that Sponsor Message: easyDNS 44:00 so we you in a second easy DNS have Rock Solid Network infrastructure and fantastic customer support they're in 44:07 your corner no matter what the world throws at you unless it's your ex-girlfriend in which case you're on 44:14 your own you know about that move your domains and websites over to easy DNS 44:19 right now all you've got to do is go to easy dns.com triggered that's easy 44:25 dns.com triggered use our promo code which is also triggered and get 50% off 44:31 the initial purchase sign up for their newsletter access of easy which tells you everything you need to know about 44:37 technology privacy and censorship and that is also part of the 44:43 problem in the media right now because oftentimes the parents that are 44:50 so gung-ho to talk to the news about how this saved their kids life and how their 44:57 kid is doing so well are like these really hardcore activist parents who Why is Trans Ideology So Powerful? 45:02 bought all the way in and they're the ones drum beating this 45:09 too and why is this ideology so powerful 45:14 why is it that it can take hold of people like this to the point that they do this to their own children and and 45:23 create significant long-term harm who um so 45:30 in in the liberal view right now in the United 45:37 States there is this huge kind so to be a white person 45:45 in the United States with privilege and to be middle class and to be able to 45:51 afford things for your kids and um to be able to 45:57 kind of to be in this privileged position is seen as a negative for a lot 46:04 of liberal people and so I do feel like 46:10 being trans has become this thing that you can't 46:16 question so you you can't really easily change you can't say you're of A 46:21 different race in the United States you can't claim ethnic background if you don't have it you can't I mean who's 46:28 going to claim that they're poor I mean and if you if you identify 46:36 is gay or lesbian you know that gets uncomfortable pretty quickly if 46:41 you if you're not really gay or lesbian but for these young people you can claim 46:47 that you're non-binary and throw they them pronouns up and and suddenly you're 46:53 in the you're in the group that's no longer the oppressor you are in the oppressed 47:00 group and I think part of why this has such these strong tentacles is nobody in 47:07 my country ever wants to tell somebody who's in you know what we view as in a 47:12 oppressive group that they're not and nobody wants to be seen as the 47:19 oppressor and but and I accept that and again this is there is no blame attached 47:25 to this whatsoever I'm just exploring what about the 47:31 adults what about the medical professionals isn't it their job to make 47:36 that decision that's what you went to college for that's what you studied that's why you put yourself through a 47:41 medical degree that's why you're in that position for you to make that choice do 47:47 you see what I mean and to me I do but you but the culture is so harsh right 47:55 now that if they were to say no to a patient then they were going to get 48:02 you're going to get blasted on social media that you're transphobic doctor that 48:09 you and and what does that mean because on social media you're blinded as a transphobic doctor what does that mean 48:15 for your career what does that mean for your prospects what does that mean for the way people perceive 48:20 you um I can speak from my own position which is that I am the I'm the hated 48:28 Outsider um I um I I was in a very 48:34 interesting position to become a whistleblower I'm basically a lite 48:40 I I had no social media to speak of I had nothing to get destroyed or taken 48:46 away from me my Twitter Fe I had none of that I I'm an old school blite and I 48:52 also was an anarchist in the 90s and you know I remember the black block and the 48:58 WTO protest and I lived in an anarchist Collective like I kind of had a really thick skin but I also remember those 49:05 kind of politics and I remember um standing up for something and and 49:13 knowing that even if you're going to get you know everybody pile on you that that 49:19 you'll F that that the other activists are out there they might be small and it might be a small group but but I felt 49:27 firm enough in my own internal convictions and I worry that we're in a 49:33 culture right now because of the way social media has changed that it's so external the judgment is so external not 49:40 internal that for so many people even adults it takes a lot of strength to to 49:45 go up against your dominant culture it does and uh that's one of the reasons I 49:51 really want to thank you for for coming out and and talking about this because I think it's super important 49:57 and one of the things we haven't yet talked about in detail is what happened 50:02 internally when you started speaking up about this because you started to ask questions didn't you I did um I started Why Jamie is Speaking Out 50:09 asking questions often and it got to the point where I even was having conversations one-on-one with the doctor 50:16 saying I we are harming children we are doing this um what would they say so 50:22 it's interesting because I I only recently read the Hannah Barnes book about the Tavistock and I was it was 50:29 almost the exact same response which I was told my tone was wrong that I was I 50:35 shouldn't be directly challenging doctors in team meetings that I was out of my Lane that I was um it was almost 50:44 identical what happened at Tavistock um and the way that I was kind of treated 50:50 was I was the annoying squeaky wheel oh we know Jamie's going to have another 50:55 issue and it got to the the point in the center where there was a an actual 51:03 directive that we were no longer allowed to use the phrase I have concerns about 51:09 a patient and in medicine that should 51:15 scare anyone because because if your surgeon comes in 51:23 and the nurse thinks that they're drunk sure as hell that nurse should be able to say I have concerns about this 51:29 patient right now and we need to stop we need medicine needs people who are 51:36 empowered by their Medical Institution to speak up nurses social workers case 51:43 managers you think someone was given the wrong dose you think they're going to cut off the wrong limb like you have to 51:48 have all of these layers in medicine have to have people who are empowered and encouraged to stand up and instead 51:57 it was routinely be quiet stop you're wrong be quiet stop and it got to the 52:03 point finally where we were told get on board or get out and that was that was the final you say we were 52:11 the other people at the center who agreed with you we didn't always agree 52:17 for the same reasons but there were a few other people who who agreed okay the 52:23 same concerns yeah and you mentioned speaking directly one-on-one with doctors so if 52:30 you come to a doctor in that sort of clinic and you would say I think we're harming the these 52:36 children would did other than shut up and and stop raising it did they did they have any counter arguments or any 52:43 explanation for why what they were doing what they were doing um sometimes it 52:49 would be well what do you want me to do instead come up with a different 52:54 solution then and I think part of that is that the 53:00 whole model of care is so upside down right now that it's like 53:08 every that they're that the doctors are even just a cog in the spinning machine and they're like the only way I know how 53:13 to spin is this way like you're telling me we're hurting people but I they would be like what how do I do 53:20 differently because then it would have to stop the it was almost like for them 53:25 to actually stop and think would have to stop the whole mechanism the whole machine would 53:32 have to stop because it's not just their portion it's the therapist portion it's 53:37 the parents portion it's the kids themselves it's the hospital it's like all this whole machine is spinning and and they were 53:45 like what what do I do and I guess in some ways I just got to the point where 53:51 I was like you know this whole machine just has to stop right now because the way that it's going it's just it's 53:58 not it sort of sounds what you're describing is like a little bit like a conveyor Bell where like it yeah right 54:05 and then you're going up to one person at one point and you're going well don't put this bit in and they're going well 54:10 there's a whole machine here there's a whole conveyor belt you know this is my job I give hormones or I do this or I do 54:16 that right yes exactly and this is what they call their affirmative model where essentially the moment a kid says I'm 54:24 dysphoric from that point on they're just on the conveyor belt and there's no getting off unless they themselves have 54:30 a of heart right as long as the kid is saying I want that is the end then that's what the kid's going to get and 54:36 you said upside down and that really is upside down because as we talked about earlier a child cannot really consent 54:42 but they are driving this whole thing is what you're telling us oh the the language even in some of the activist 54:48 groups is that you're supposed to be child Le that the child's supposed to be leading this and here's the thing about 54:54 kids kids who think that they're the ones who are supposed to make the decision are actually in more distress 55:03 and are in more pain because they feel 55:08 like there's no grown-ups in the room who are in charge and as a parent I know 55:15 for my own kids they do better in life when I can say things to them like hey 55:22 this is not your decision we're the grown-ups we've got this hand L we know 55:27 what we're doing you can go be a kid do not worry about these things and as they 55:34 get older you may be add a little bit more like no at Disneyland you cannot buy the whole Toy Store because 55:40 grown-ups only have this much money and you slowly start giving them some senses 55:46 of choice but no a 14-year-old does not want to think that they have to make the 55:52 decision for what the whole rest of their life is for their ility and for their medical care no I mean it's 56:00 absolutely spoton it's why all this child centered I see I saw it towards the end of my time and education they 56:07 called it child centered learning where the child was in charge of their learning and I was like I don't think an 56:13 eight-year-old should be in charge of their learning it's just I don't think an eight-year-old should be in charge of 56:19 my dinner choice for tonight because they're not going to choose I mean no 56:24 yeah ice cream and Jello for you tonight Jamie listen we joke of course but the 56:30 one thing look I I became a parent about 11 months ago you know and when I think about this that's the prism through 56:37 which I'm thinking about I've got this beautiful baby boy he's pure potentiality he's growing up he's 56:44 wonderful and then fast forward a few years and they fly by and let's say he's What to Do if Your Child Wants to Transition 56:51 been on Tik Tok or whatever which he's not going to be at this rate but let's say that he was and 56:57 we he says that he's experiencing distress the household is in turmoil as you describe and we the good parents 57:05 take them to Pro Professionals for 57:10 help and then three months later he's on puberty blockers and estrogen and and and in in 57:18 the case that you described some of them are taking like cancer drugs yep yeah to 57:25 I mean the question I think parents would want to ask you Jamie is what should you do if that is what happens to 57:32 your child I think that's a really good question and first of all there are a 57:38 whole lot of parents out there who can answer this question also and what I found frustrating with the media is 57:45 there were a lot of parents who wanted to talk to my local media because they had a kid in that situation and they 57:52 knew better than to take their kid to the center that I work at they already 57:57 figured it out I cannot go there I cannot take my kid there unless I want X Y and Z as the outcome but again parents 58:06 can be a parent one of the things as the case worker in the center I found really 58:12 shocking for a lot of these parents is you do get to have some of the control and say over your child's social media 58:19 use there are parental controls uh my poor kids their cell phones still sleep in the kitchen you don't you you don't 58:26 have your cell phone with you in the middle of the night in your room at 12: 58:31 that's insane nobody needs that and the parents would be like oh well they use sleep music I'm like no get this put 58:39 some levers and controls back in being a parent but 58:45 also these kid kids right now are under a lot of mental health stress and issues 58:53 and you need to find a good pediatrician if you think your kid is expressing you 58:58 know anxiety or depression regardless of the gender focus on those things focus 59:04 on the basics these kids are kids who are not going to school very well or 59:10 often need friends groups need to go outside and get exercise need to sleep 59:15 we are seeing that a ton of these kids had terrible sleep hygiene need to eat 59:20 real food I mean some of these things are from you know the beginnings the basics as parents 59:26 as do these healthy things from the start and then if your kid does come to you and say they're experiencing XY and 59:33 G things about their gender my answer is normally normative gender exploration is 59:41 fine wear whatever clothes you want within reason you still have to be dressed I don't care what your hair 59:47 looks like I don't care if you're a boy and you want to wear makeup or nail polish who cares let those social 59:56 gender things can we actually like be a little bit more flexible with those things let your kids explore but no you 1:00:05 don't need to change everybody's pronouns your name cannot change 12 times if you want a nickname fine but no 1:00:12 you don't need a binder you don't need you don't need to do all of these things and you really do not need to be 1:00:18 medically intervening let them explore and give 1:00:23 them a way out tell them as the parent explore this stuff try this on but if 1:00:30 you try this and you don't like it then we can change we can go back you can get different clothes you can grow your hair 1:00:36 back out don't pigeon hole your kid into this into this thing and Jamie what about the D 1:00:44 transitioners what about the kids who've gone through the conveyor belt and they've had the you know the surgeries 1:00:51 the medicalization they've come out the other side they've realized that this has all been a horrendous mistake what 1:00:58 happens to them uh the medical establishment right now is 1:01:04 [Music] completely completely ignoring them and pretending like they don't exist so the 1:01:11 centers don't see them um there really is no care provided 1:01:20 and I think that part of part of part of 1:01:26 my hope for centers like this is that not only do we actually pause 1:01:33 this crazy experiment that's going on but then also really focus on providing 1:01:40 medical support and care for all of those kids and I also think we do need 1:01:46 to recognize that there are going to be longterm outcomes that might need some 1:01:52 legal financial support because you are like Khloe Cole and you had a double 1:02:00 mass sectomy at 13 and you're now just now 18 the the financial 1:02:07 damages for her could not even really be calculated 1:02:14 probably it would have to look at her whole lifetime what do this done to her fertility her her bonding with her child 1:02:21 her ability to breastfeed like those things deserve a financial answer 1:02:26 and hopefully also that we stop doing this to anyone else well Jamie to read 1:02:33 between the lines and to summarize it in the blunt Russian way as only I can it sounds like what you're saying is this 1:02:39 is a medical malpractice Scandal on a large scale that is going to blow up in 1:02:45 people's faces very soon in your opinion or at least should blow up in people's faces very 1:02:51 I yeah I think you kind of nailed it 1:02:57 well you know what when you get someone on the show to talk about it who's you know who's a journalist or they have an 1:03:04 opinion for you know they talk for a living and whatever you sort of go well you know are you qualified to talk about 1:03:10 it but you know talking to you about it has really clarified a lot of things in my mind because you've seen it from the 1:03:15 inside and you were involved in you know working with this I suppose the one counterargument people sometimes make is 1:03:22 I have heard some people who are on board with this stuff say say that oh D transitioners are a very small 1:03:28 percentage you know any medical treatment has some people who are not happy with the outcome if you go and 1:03:34 have some kind of you know if you go and get a hip replacement there's a whatever percent failure and people get upset 1:03:40 that the hip didn't get replace correctly what what what say you to 1:03:46 them yes there are there are definite medical interventions that are 1:03:53 done that can have core outcomes however this is 1:04:00 systematic this is almost Universal 1:04:05 and this is not even touching on the the outcomes that we are also so an outcome 1:04:14 of somebody who's detransitioning but the outcome of somebody who is 13 and put on 1:04:21 testosterone by 26 they're potentially going to also be on a cholesterol medic ation a diabetes medication have heart 1:04:28 complications have an early Cardiac Arrest um we know that these drugs just 1:04:35 longitudinally are not healthy good drugs they're harsh they're hard on the 1:04:40 body these are hard things to continuously have to use and so I think 1:04:47 part of the reason why it's it's just a broader medical Scandal is that even in 1:04:54 the best case outcome where someone's happy with that transition their body is 1:05:01 still going to have medical problems and complications from the use of these drugs and also I think just as a society 1:05:09 I thought we had gotten to the point where we were done sterilizing kids just 1:05:15 I I just thought we were done doing that and recognize that to be its 1:05:21 own kind of problematic thing that we weren't we 1:05:26 weren't going to be doing that anymore Jamie and I'm also a gay person 1:05:31 and I just feel like we're also kind of what are we doing to this whole group 1:05:38 of kids that are potentially just gay kids the phrase people uses you're transing away the gay yeah 1:05:46 yeah well it's been an uplifting episode anyway but Jamie thank you so much for 1:05:53 coming on and for speaking openly and honestly we everybody here salutes your 1:05:58 bravery and I'm sure there's going to be tens of thousands if not hopefully hundreds of thousands of people are 1:06:04 going to be listening uh to your words and they're going to be protecting kids 1:06:10 and they're going to be better informed to this situation before we let you go What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About? Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! 1:06:15 uh the last question we ask all our guests is what's the one thing that we're not talking about as a society 1:06:22 that we really should be it's strange but I'm going to say homophobia so I think that part of the 1:06:31 trans epidemic is that kids did not feel 1:06:37 and do not feel like it's okay to be gay and a lot of the spaces and a lot of the 1:06:43 support that I had as a gay kid has has 1:06:48 disappeared so there was a gay coffee house there were gay bars there was a 1:06:55 gay culture and it was I thought we were getting to 1:07:01 the point as a society that it was okay to be gay and now so many of these trans kids tell us directly in the center that 1:07:08 it's it's not and that they feel like it it's almost better to be trans and have 1:07:14 a lifetime of medical problems and that means we have to go back to square one and really deal with 1:07:22 homophobia J Marie thank you so much for coming on the show we're we going to ask you a few questions from our supporters 1:07:27 that only they will get to see the answers to we're going to make sure to put a link to the article that you published about this and I really 1:07:34 recommend everybody you know sorry to use this problematic phrase but man up and read it because it's it's pretty 1:07:41 pretty difficult reading frankly but needs reading if you want to be informed about this issue um and thank you for 1:07:46 coming on is is there anywhere other than the article that people should go to to follow your work or anything like 1:07:52 that um at this point no good you're the L as as you you started as a l and 1:08:00 you're sticking to your principles I love it well listen thank you for coming on the show thank you guys for watching and listening uh see you on locals with 1:08:07 the bonus questions very very shortly |