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Hardball did a Chambers interview some years ago. A transcript is available, I couldn't find the audio. 'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Monday, July 9, 2012 July 10, 2012, 3:57 PM GMT+2 Guests: Alan Chambers, Susan Page, Marc Levin [...] Plus, the "pray away the gay" movement is reeling today. One of its leaders says he was wrong, that there is no so-called cure for homosexuality. Alan Chambers joins us tonight. SMERCONISH: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Three years ago, I welcomed our next guest to my radio program to discuss the American Psychological Association`s repudiation of "gay to straight" therapy or reparative therapy. As president of Exodus International, the largest evangelical organization dealing with this issue, Alan Chambers believed you could pray away the gay. Let`s listen. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) ALAN CHAMBERS, PRES., EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: I`m denying the power that those things had over me. You know, people say once you`re gay, you`re always gay, you can`t break free from that. That`s not true. (END AUDIO CLIP) SMERCONISH: Chambers even appeared in ads with his wife saying change is possible. But now he says there`s no cure for homosexuality and that reparative therapy doesn`t wipe out homosexual desires. Alan Chambers is still president of Exodus and a husband and father of two kids, and he`s joining me now. Mr. Chambers, what happened? What accounts for the change in position? CHAMBERS: Well, I want to be clear about what those changes are. The fact is, my life is still as it was when I was on your radio program three years ago, and I still hold to a biblical sexual ethic where homosexuality and other forms of sexuality are concerned. But what I think what`s changed for me is, really, the overemphasis on this issue in ways that we don`t emphasize other issues in the church. And specifically, with regards to reparative therapy, that so much of that type of technique and therapy is focused on changing attraction or changing temptation, when I don`t find that there`s a biblical reality that says people will necessarily change their temptations or change their struggles. So I want to be very, very clear about that. SMERCONISH: Well, how about... CHAMBERS: ... as we reach out to people... SMERCONISH: How about the practical -- how about the practical reality? Can you pray away the gay? Do you believe today that reparative therapy works? CHAMBERS: You know, I -- I think that praying away the gay has always been a lazy stereotype. That`s certainly not what I did. And I think it invalidates the complexity of this very complex issue. As far as reparative therapy goes, you know, for years, we at Exodus endorsed that and had people within our movement who did reparative therapy. But so much of the focus is changing there, where they`re talking about 100 percent cures and using that word specifically with me in privatevconversations, and then even introducing things like heterosexual pornography to help initiate or instigate or bring about heterosexual attraction. And I don`t find that that`s healthy or helpful or realistic at all. SMERCONISH: I guess what I`m waiting for you to say that I gleaned from "The New York Times" but I`m not hearing on HARDBALL is that it doesn`t work, because in "The Times," quote, "He said that virtually every ex-gay he has ever met still harbors homosexual cravings, himself included." You`re married, father of two. You have homosexual cravings, is that right? CHAMBERS: I have same-sex attractions. You know, I think that what Eric said in "The Times" wasn`t what I said. I didn`t use the word "cravings," nor would I use them. I am married. I am happily married. My attractions, if you want to know, are specifically and always towards my wife. For me, those things have changed. My life is not the same as it was 21 years ago when I sought help. But to say that I don`t have temptations or that I could never be tempted or don`t have same-sex attractions isn`t true. And I think it`s very important For me as a Christian leader and as someone who is helping people in their journey say those things very, very clearly. SMERCONISH: But if you have the -- respectfully, if you have those attractions, because I think I just heard you say that you still maintain -- not that there`s anything wrong with it, but that you still maintain same-sex attractions -- are you trapped in that marriage of yours? CHAMBERS: I`m not trapped in that marriage. I married my wife 15 years ago because I was in love with her. I remain in love with her today. And what has changed for me is, that love has only grown deeper. My attraction and my desire for my wife has only grown stronger. Never in 15 years have I been tempted to be unfaithful to my wife. I love her. She is the object of my every affection. But to say that I don`t have... SMERCONISH: Mr. Chambers, what would you say -- what would you say, sir, to a young person who perhaps three years ago at the time when we first met via the airwaves listened to Alan Chambers and took to heart your message as it then existed and believed and pursued a career path for the last couple of years hoping that they could turn away from these innate feelings that they had? Do you apologize to those folks now? Do you say I got it wrong and come back to this fold? I mean, what`s the message? CHAMBERS: Well, I think if someone hears my message and thinks that I`m telling them that they`re never going to struggle again, that those feelings are going to go away or that they`re going to be -- their lives are going to be anything like my life, I am sorry for that. That has never been my intention. My intention is to -- is to simply help people of faith who are in conflict where their sexuality meets their faith to live either celibate lives or to pursue a life that they feel is congruent with their faith. And that... (CROSSTALK) SMERCONISH: Would a homosexual -- would a homosexual be precluded - would a homosexual be precluded admission from heaven on the basis of their sexuality, according to Alan Chambers? CHAMBERS: Well, thankfully, it`s not according to Alan Chambers. My biblical beliefs are that no one is excluded to heaven who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He offers that relationship to anyone and everyone who would ask him for that. And I think the Bible is very simple in its terms of how you come into a relationship. It says ask and you shall receive. Knock. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened to you. It doesn`t say anywhere that there`s any exclusions of people who can seek, ask and knock. And that has always been our message. SMERCONISH: You defended reparative therapy a year ago in an interview with ABC`s Brian Ross, comparing it to a weight loss struggle. Here`s a piece of that tape. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHAMBERS: It`s not picking and choosing people who are gay or lesbian. It really hits all of us. We can look at other organizations who help people dealing with other life struggles, for instance, Weight Watchers, which has tremendously benefited by life. Should we go after Weight Watchers and tell them, don`t say that there`s anything beyond obesity for people who are struggling with obesity and want an alternative to that? (END VIDEO CLIP) SMERCONISH: Does that analogy still hold up in your view? CHAMBERS: You know, for me, I think those things do hold up in my life. I have benefited from Weight Watchers and other types of programs that have helped me in other areas of struggle in my life. I`m not telling someone that is happily gay identified or gay or lesbian that they should choose the life that I live or that God will love them more or love them less depending on the decision that they make. What I`m saying is for me and for people of faith who want to choose to live through the filter of their faith and a strong biblical sexual ethic in that regard, that they have that right to do that. And so when it comes to issues like reparative therapy, I wouldn`t say that I was defending reparative therapy a year ago. I think we broad-brushed that. Reparative therapy is a very small and specific type of therapy that a few therapists use. That isn`t something that Exodus does today. (CROSSTALK) SMERCONISH: Bottom line, if I can just frame it simplistically, in that age-old question, genes vs. environment, we agree. Genes, right? It`s the hand you`re dealt. CHAMBERS: Well, I think that what we have to do is stop making it so simple. It`s not simple. I think nature and nurture play a part in my life. We are genetic beings, for sure, but we are certainly a product of the environment that we grow up in. And I think to oversimplify this is to invalidate the complexity of someone`s life. And I`m not willing to do that. SMERCONISH: Mr. Chambers, thanks for being here. We appreciate it. CHAMBERS: My pleasure. Oh, right. You're welcome ;-) |