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Re: Born this way

Posted by monkeyLostInHead on 2024-April-1 08:26:12, Monday
In reply to Re: Born this way posted by Pharmakon on 2024-April-1 03:15:53, Monday

But are they a marginalized group? Based on sexuality?

I asked you this before, but are we talking about sexuality, or gender? Because I have been informed multiple times that these are different things.

Our fight is against marginalization of sexually divergent groups.

Thats not my fight. My fight is against irrationality and lies and dishonesty.

I don't disallow facts.

Yes you do. You support Natalie Wynns position, which is that if someone is bringing logic and facts , they are bigoted. You want to skip past the facts and go straight to what actions, if any, we should take.

But facts support stories. By themselves they mean nothing. Your story -- that gender must conform to biology -- has nothing but mere factuality to support it. Males cannot be female because, well, they just aren't.

You are making up stories in your head. I have not stated any story, or position, so far. Just because you can make up some story about how I am camouflaging, or I am bigoted, or am a biological essentialist, does not mean its true.

And I dont know what you mean by "mere factuality".

Facts do not support stories. Facts support arguments. facts do not "mean nothing"
eg

P1)All men are mortal
P2)Socrates is a man
C) Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

facts that support P1 and P2, then allow you to reach the conclusion C. There is no story involved.


Males cannot be female because, well, they just aren't.

Why do we have different words, male and female, if they dont refer to different things or different characteristics? By this argument, words mean anything that anyone wants them to mean.

Are men and women different in some fundamental ways?

Also, as I have also been informed multiple times, biological sex is different from gender. We are talking about gender, arent we?

You seem to want to treat "facts" as determinative, rather than as evidence in support of what social practices we should adopt in order to live happily and comfortably together.

Yes, thats what arguments are. You have a set of premises, which are shown to be true when supported by facts. The conclusion then follows from these premises, if all premises are true.

So in order to argue for a set of social practices we should adopt in order to live happily and comfortably together, you would need to make an argument, supported by facts. your argument appears to be

P1) some males want to be treated as female
P2) they are suffering
P3) it is the duty of everyone to alleviate others suffering, even if it means lying, or going against what you believe to be true, or is at a cost to you.
P4) we can alleviate their suffering by treating them as female
P5) social practices should be adopted in order to live happily and comfortably together
P6) treating non females as females allows us to live happily and comfortably together
therefore
C) we should treat them as female.

Obviously I do not agree with P3 or P4.

P3 can be refuted because if it were true, we would need to give money to every poor person we see, for example ( i realize you may disagree with how I have framed P3, so state your own version if you like)
P4 can be refuted because there are examples of people who have been treated as female, and their suffering has not been alleviated.
P5 is questionable. I am not sure I agree with it
P6 you would have to show to be true, and Im not sure how you could do that.

As far as I can tell, your argument is that we must treat males who identify as female as male because they just are.

I havent given any argument yet. I am refuting yours.

Given that we do treat males and females differently, why, in your opinion, is it necessary for us to treat males who identify as female as male, rather than as female? Wouldn't we all be better off doing the opposite?

You would need to show that we would all be better off doing the opposite.


What we are really talking about is:

"There are people who are not female, who want to be treated as female. How do we deal with this"

I think that is a fair discussion to have.
I wonder whether trans people would agree with this framing though. I very much doubt that Lial, or Natalie Wynn, for example, would agree with this or put it this way.














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